From the Barrynet Message Board This Morning (2/17)

[jtmtj]

Posted by somebody named Les Joyce. Does anyone know who this is. He's
got guts. I'll give him that. Some of the Barry-can-do-no-wrong throng
are getting their panties in a bunch. I wonder how long it will take them
to remove this and suspend his privleges.

***

BOTH CLIVE AND BARRY GAY : ROLLING STONE STORY

Clive Davis has been the world's best publicist for over 30
years...manufacturing his own version of his life story and cementing it
with every tv show, magazine and media outlet in the world.
He proved it again with the recent Rolling Stone profile.

Sure Clive was at the right place at the right time,
and he has some talents, no one can take that away.

But was this RS feature supposed to be a giant old school
fluff piece from the 80's? or in keeping with the excellent
investigative journalism we've seen from your magazine ?

Most notably glaring absent, is the fact that RS writer
Rich Cohen was bamboozled into thinking that '(he) was
here all alone in the house with Clive, with no one else ",
and that simply because Davis tells him he's got 4 children
that he is straight in lifestyle. Where's the delving into the REAL FACTS
ABOUT CLIVE which he could have discovered by simply talking
with almost anyone in the industry?

Davis took him to the country house, but not to his real residence in
Manhattan. Because he is hiding something about his life, for some strange
and unexplained reason, for over 30 years.

The fact is, and it is VERY well known throughout the industry and on both
coasts, that Clive Davis has been leading a gay lifestyle for over 25
years. This began after his marriage dissolved.

In fact, he has been in a serious relationship with a wonderful doctor for
the past 15 or more years. This is no secret. so why no mention in the RS
story, or ANY PROFILE on Davis...ever ?

Are people so scared, and of what? The man is 80 years old
and an inch away from knocking on heavens door.

Why can important high profile execs and artists like David Geffen, Elton
John, Rufus Wainright and so many other great execs and artists come out
and stand up proud, but Davis (and Manilow and his own boyfriend / manager
Garry Kief for that matter) are 'untouchable' by the music and mainstream
press?

The fact is: Both Barry and Clive have been living a gay lifestyle for
over twenty years now. And the joke is on the public and the fans.

It's a sham, and a travesty of journalistic facts. Clive smoked Rolling
Stone again, and it looks like Davis' real life story will emerge along
the same lines as Merv Griffin after he passed thru this world. Both men,
feeling they have to conceal and hide something.

As Bono once said, "It's all about an effort to 'reveal',
or 'conceal'. Ahh, so true.

I know the above facts to be true with Davis and Barely ManEnough because
I worked closely with both of them for over 15 years. I have met and
worked with their boyfriends and again, this is no secret in the industry.
It's all common knowledge, and no one really blinks an eye. But now you
know, the public and fans.

So to read this RS profile was laughable to see that Clive has succeeded
again, just like George Bush with the Iraq War and so much more, in
manipulating the truth. Las year, LA Times ran a major profile on Barely
ManEnough and Clive and again never mentioned that both were
prominent gay men.

If Davis and Manilow could stand proud and truthful about his life, he
would set a terrific example for the young people of this music industry,
much as Rolling Stone's own publisher Mr. Wenner has done recently with
his own life (he was married for 15 yeaers, then in recent years lives a
gay lifestyle). And I salute Wenner for that. After the Aids crisis, it
was important for every gay man to empower himself and the alternative
community
as nothing to be ashamed of, but instead something to be an activist for.


Davis and Manilow have BOTH done so much damage by being the opposite.

Because we are only as sick as our secrets, and they have a big one hiding
under their hats.

The RS and LA Times writers missed the boat by a million miles, was
manipulated by Davis and Manilow and his publicists, and misled readers at
a time when the truth is so important in this world of ours.

C'mon Clive and Barry, it's time to tell music fans the real story and
stop living a lie in public.

***

John


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[Anavaye]

No one I know has heard of this 'Les Joyce'.

Could be Kirsten's pathetic ex-husband under a fake name - mad because he
didn't get what he wanted in the divorce and is now being hunted by Gloria
Allred for unpaid legal fees. Betcha' no one wants him to manage their own
tours, either, so he's lashing out.

Anyone see his website at the time the divorce legalities were made
public? He described his occupation as 'Playboy' and the entrance button
was like a little boys clubhouse door. Then, he had pictures of slutty
women all over the page. He was THAT stupid. This post is the same
self-destructive behavior.

But he got what he deserved. He did it to himself.

Anne




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[Scooter]

Post by jtmtj
Posted by somebody named Les Joyce. Does anyone know who this is.

Les Joyce was Barry's old tour manager. No way to tell if that post was
really made by him, or someone posing. Lots of posers on the WWW.

[Anavaye]

Wo-o-o-oah. Thanks for the ID, Scooter. I doubt that Joyce would use his
own name for a such a 'declaration'. He'd have to be nuts, too.

Must be also pissed off at Les Joyce, for such a set-up.

This one part leads me to believe that this was a copy of a letter to the
magazine (couldn't find it) and the writer wanted to brag about what was

But was this RS feature supposed to be a giant old school fluff piece

from the 80's? or in keeping with the excellent investigative journalism
we've seen from "your" magazine ? (q marks mine) <<<

What a jerk.

Anne




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[Maggs]

Gary Oye has a filtering system in place so he can spot Barry Netters old
and new if they try to create a new screen name with the same IP address.
So, unless a very enraged former poster went to the trouble of blocking
their IP ID or moving location in order to post, who knows who this
asshole was? My guess is that it was a random *pot stirrer* (official
BMIFC terminology for the anti-Manilow)who just woke up today and decided
to cause a little fuss on the board.
And yes, it is possible to get new screen names to post on the Barry Net,
but now Gary has this widget the accounts will never become active.
I haven't posted there in a while and can never remember my password, and
besides, I don't have anything to say about leather pants. I get the
reasoning behind thinking it might be Fabro as Joyce was a tour manager
but I'm pretty sure he died (Joyce, not Fabro). Whoever did it has the
brain span of a goldfish though, because they ought to have known posts
not containing OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! FANTABULOUS and how handsome and sexy
Manilow is would be removed. Let's face it, they couldn't have used those
words anyhow seeing as Davis was mentioned in the same post.Maggs

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[Brenda]

Is there anyone else out there who is so sick and tired (funny how
those two word always go together) of the whole "Is Barry gay and
living with Garry Kief" controversy?

To me - regardless of whether you believe it or not - this is SUCH
non-news, and yet there are still posters out there (on the BNET or
wherever) who act like the mere possibility of such a coupling would
send most of us fans into alcohol abuse and scream therapy. This
common assumption by those who would call themselves hip, cool
insiders insults both my pride and my intelligence (and I'm sure I'm
not alone in feeling this way).

IF THERE'S ANYONE OUT THERE STUPID ENOUGH TO THINK MOST OF US ARE THAT
CLUELESS ...

Well ... you're more gullible than we are.
Most of the fans heard all this crapola for the first time 25 years
ago.

And, in the words of Rhett Butler, "we just don't give a damn."

So ... if you think it's real "news" ... the joke is on YOU.

Brenda

P.S. Please ... isn't there anyone out there who has some REAL news to
share about Barry?

That his new original album is coming out in 30 days?
That he's suddenly offering free meets and greets to his fans?
That he's decided to shave his head and go swimming with dolphins?


ANY of that would truly be actual news, and worthy attention.

But this gay Garry/Barry thing is like hearing there's a brand new
show premiering on TV, turning on the TV and finding out it's an
episode of "Andy Griffith" we've seen in repeats for the past 30
years.

[Patricia]

Post by Brenda
Is there anyone else out there who is so sick and tired (funny how
those two word always go together) of the whole "Is Barry gay and
living with Garry Kief" controversy?
To me - regardless of whether you believe it or not - �this is SUCH
non-news, and yet there are still posters out there (on the BNET or
wherever) who act like the mere possibility of such a coupling would
send most of us fans into alcohol abuse and scream therapy. �This
common assumption by those who would call �themselves hip, cool
insiders �insults both my pride and my intelligence (and I'm sure I'm
not alone in feeling this way).
IF THERE'S ANYONE OUT THERE STUPID ENOUGH TO THINK MOST OF US ARE THAT
CLUELESS ...
Well ... you're more gullible than we are.
Most of the fans heard all this crapola �for the first time 25 years
ago.
And, in the words of Rhett Butler, "we just don't give a damn."
So ... if you think it's real "news" ... the joke is on YOU.
Brenda
P.S. Please ... isn't there anyone out there who has some REAL news to
share about Barry?
That his new original album is coming out in 30 days?
That he's suddenly offering free meets and greets to his fans?
That he's decided to shave his head and go swimming with dolphins?
ANY of that would truly be actual news, and worthy attention.
But this gay Garry/Barry thing is like hearing there's a brand new
show premiering on TV, turning on the TV and finding out it's an
episode of "Andy Griffith" we've seen in repeats for the past 30
years.

Many of you seem to have missed the point of the guy's comments. Your
reactions are the same kind of thing I've seen over and over again
from Manilow fans: you're so anxious to assume someone is saying
something to shock or upset you (because naturally saying someone is
gay is, to many of you, the same as insulting them or saying there's
something wrong with them), and so quick to claim that you don't care
and that you're above even thinking of such things, that you don't
actually take the time to read and consider what's being said before
you dismiss it.

Now I don't know the person who posted the message (and no, he's not
in my book), and I don't know whether the things he says about Clive
Davis are true or not. But I can clearly see the point of his
message, and it's the same point others have made and the same problem
a lot of people have had with Barry and other high profile closeted
people. When these people work to hide who they really are from the
public (and I'm not talking about simply keeping their private lives
private, but actually taking evasive action and even outright lying to
hide their true selves behind a more societally acceptable facade) it
sends a message that they feel ashamed, that they feel they're doing
something wrong. This sort of attitude in turns fuels a negative bias
that's already ridiculously prevalent in this country. Deb said
something about her not introducing herself as being a straight
person, and commented that being gay, straight or bi doesn't really
matter. But the fact is, it DOES matter. The very fact that being
heterosexual is considered "straight" (as in good and right and true)
while being homosexual is to be "queer" (as in odd and different and
bad) pretty much sums things up. Straight people don't have to fight
about or flaunt their orientation because it's considered the norm.
But it's not that easy for gay people. And as long as high profile
gays behave in a way that suggests to the straight world that they're
right in thinking that homosexuality should be hidden at all costs,
nothing is going to change.

That was the point of that guy's message. It wasn't about shocking
people or trying to be inflammatory. To me it sounded very clearly
like someone tired of people not owning their own lives and taking
advantage of their influence to help others who are working toward
equality for all but, in fact, through their behavior, constantly
setting those efforts back.

This person clearly wasn't trying to deliver a newsflash, or shock
people with something they didn't already know. You may find what he
said boring, but it's only because you've once again read a couple of
words and let your assumptions fill in the rest for you without
actually giving it any serious consideration. The post wasn't about
being gay; it was about being honest. Those things shouldn't have to
be mutually exclusive.

Patricia

[Brenda]

Many of you seem to have missed the point of the guy's comments.  Your
reactions are the same kind of thing I've seen over and over again
from Manilow fans: you're so anxious to assume someone is saying
something to shock or upset you (because naturally saying someone is
gay is, to many of you, the same as insulting them or saying there's
something wrong with them), and so quick to claim that you don't care
and that you're above even thinking of such things, that you don't
actually take the time to read and consider what's being said before
you dismiss it.

Patricia,

I realize that the tone of one's writing is perceived subjectively
(and can understand why you, coming in with a biographer's perspective
rather than that of a fan's, might have perceived it differently than
I did). Perhaps the tone did not touch you the same way it did me;
while nothing in the post shocked me personally, I felt the "joke is
on the fans" comment (among others) implied the writer of the post
views Barry's fans as one big gullible target, eager to be suckered
into The Big Lie so that The Big Fantasy can live on.

But I did read the piece carefully. Whether the identity of the
author is legit is pretty meaningless to me, because nothing that was
written is anything I hadn't heard or read before. I feel it's
probably credible information, but that's just my opinion.

But I do not agree that the post was entirely about honesty. If it
were, Barry's (and Garry's and Clive's) sexual orientations would not
have been the main focus. There is so much more (Barry's real age,
for example) that has been purposely hidden from the public. If it's
just about honesty, why not throw it ALL out there for consumption? I
think the writer focuses on the sex because he/she believes that's the
knife that will cut the deepest. And - with some fans - it will.

But let's agree that honesty is the main focus of the piece. You went
on to write:

 But I can clearly see the point of his

message, and it's the same point others have made and the same problem
a lot of people have had with Barry and other high profile closeted
people.  When these people work to hide who they really are from the
public (and I'm not talking about simply keeping their private lives
private, but actually taking evasive action and even outright lying to
hide their true selves behind a more societally acceptable facade) it
sends a message that they feel ashamed, that they feel they're doing
something wrong.  

Patricia, that's honestly not the message I'm getting at all.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with shame or hiding
anything from society. If it did, Barry and Garry wouldn't be a
popular Palm Springs couple. I think it has everything to do with
marketing. From the very beginning, Clive helped Barry create an
image that would sell a LOT of albums and hell, it worked like a
charm. Posturing Barry as a straight, under-30 pop superstar with a
devoted girlfriend but still looking for the real love of his life was
irresistible to legions of new fans. But - in 1976 - if Clive and
Barry had tried to sell Barry as a gay, over-30 superstar with one (or
several) devoted boyfriends, do you honestly believe you and I would
be talking about him on the Internet today? He wouldn't have had his
amazing career.

If this is really about dishonesty, then I think it's rather unfair to
target one performer when this "dishonesty" fuels an entire industry.
It's the dishonesty (I think they prefer to say "spin") that keeps the
plastic surgeons in business, the diet industry flourishing, the
pharmaceutical companies raking in profits and cosmetic companies
torturing more animals. Nobody would need public relations if the
performer himself could just sit in front of a reporter and honestly
spill the beans about himself whenever he felt the urge. But the
industry thrives on fantasy, and honest disclosure about everything
and anything kills the fantasy.

If Barry deserves a guilty verdict for creating (and allowing others
to help create) an image that could sell a product, then we need to
jail everybody. Because, if it's not about being gay, then everybody
in show business should be held just as accountable for every phony
smile, airbrushed photo and canned response he/she carries around in
their gold leafed, monogrammed portfolios.

But - when we consider that the products sold have brought joy to so
many people - why can't we just acquit everyone and move on? It
saddens me to think of how much art our culture would have missed out
on if the discussion had been all about the artists' lives first.
Isn't the creation much more important than the creator?

Like you, I would love to live in a world where there is no bias
against any demographic. But gays haven't cornered the market when it
comes to being victimized (I wish I had a dollar for every time I've
seen some so-called FAT actress being reviled on the cover of some
supermarket rag!)

I would love it if Barry COULD be 100% himself when he gives an
interview. We could learn so much more from him - and so much more
appreciate what he's sacrificed for his career - if he could be
entirely open. But I think people need to take ownership for their
own faults and thoughts. We are ALL biased against somebody or some
group for some reason. And a performer breaking ranks with the
industry norm and being completely honest about himself or herself -
whether it's in reference to his sexual orientation, age, or the names
of his pets - isn't going to change what you or I really think.

Finally ... why must a performer's ethics or honesty include full
disclosure about who he/she is in the bedroom? I still maintain that
while President Clinton shouldn't have lied on the witness stand, he
never should have been questioned about his affair to begin with. That
was WRONG. The media went too far. It had nothing to do with his job
and is nobody's business but his, his girlfriend's, and his
wife's.

Thanks for offering a different perspective and, I hope, for
respecting mine.

Brenda

[Patricia]

Post by ChewsCrayons

Many of you seem to have missed the point of the guy's comments. �Your
reactions are the same kind of thing I've seen over and over again
from Manilow fans: you're so anxious to assume someone is saying
something to shock or upset you (because naturally saying someone is
gay is, to many of you, the same as insulting them or saying there's
something wrong with them), and so quick to claim that you don't care
and that you're above even thinking of such things, that you don't
actually take the time to read and consider what's being said before
you dismiss it.

Patricia,
I realize that the tone of one's writing is perceived subjectively
(and can understand why you, coming in with a biographer's perspective
rather than that of a fan's, might have perceived it differently than
I did). � Perhaps the tone did not touch you the same way it did me;
while nothing in the post shocked me personally, I felt the "joke is
on the fans" comment (among others) implied the writer of the post
views Barry's fans as one big gullible target, eager to be suckered
into The Big Lie so that The Big Fantasy can live on.
But I did read the piece carefully. �Whether the identity of the
author is legit is pretty meaningless to me, because nothing that was
written is anything I hadn't heard or read before. �I feel it's
probably credible information, but that's just my opinion.
But I do not agree that the post was entirely about honesty. �If it
were, Barry's (and Garry's and Clive's) sexual orientations would not
have been the main focus. �There is so much more (Barry's real age,
for example) that has been purposely hidden from the public. �If it's
just about honesty, why not throw it ALL out there for consumption? �I
think the writer focuses on the sex because he/she believes that's the
knife that will cut the deepest. �And - with some fans - it will.

When's the last time you heard of someone being beaten to death
because someone discovered they were three years older than they
claimed to be? I'm going to guess the answer is "never." Sexuality
was the main focus because that's the area where people's dishonesty
is causing a problem.

Post by ChewsCrayons
But let's agree that honesty is the main focus of the piece. �You went
�But I can clearly see the point of his

message, and it's the same point others have made and the same problem
a lot of people have had with Barry and other high profile closeted
people. �When these people work to hide who they really are from the
public (and I'm not talking about simply keeping their private lives
private, but actually taking evasive action and even outright lying to
hide their true selves behind a more societally acceptable facade) it
sends a message that they feel ashamed, that they feel they're doing
something wrong. �

Patricia, that's honestly not the message I'm getting at all.
I don't think it has anything at all to do with shame or hiding
anything from society. �If it did, Barry and Garry wouldn't be a
popular Palm Springs couple. �I think it has everything to do with
marketing. �From the very beginning, Clive helped Barry create an
image that would sell a LOT of albums and hell, it worked like a
charm. �Posturing Barry as a straight, under-30 pop superstar with a
devoted girlfriend but still looking for the real love of his life was
irresistible to legions of new fans. �But - in 1976 - if Clive and
Barry had tried to sell Barry as a gay, over-30 superstar with one (or
several) devoted boyfriends, do you honestly believe you and I would
be talking about him on the Internet today? �He wouldn't have had his
amazing career.

I never said otherwise. In fact, I make exactly that point in my
book. But this isn't 1976. This is 2008. Manilow has been firmly
established for decades and has had many opportunities to be honest
with his fans, but has decided against it every time. And we'll just
have to agree to disagree on your assertion that Manilow lied about
various aspects of his life because Clive Davis made him do it.

Post by ChewsCrayons
If this is really about dishonesty, then I think it's rather unfair to
target one performer when this "dishonesty" fuels an entire industry.
It's the dishonesty (I think they prefer to say "spin") that keeps the
plastic surgeons in business, the diet industry flourishing, the
pharmaceutical companies raking in profits and cosmetic companies
torturing more animals. �Nobody would need public relations if the
performer himself could just sit in front of a reporter and honestly
spill the beans about himself whenever he felt the urge. �But the
industry thrives on fantasy, and honest disclosure about everything
and anything kills the fantasy.

No one asked him for full disclosure about every aspect of his life --
just one major one. And, last I knew, neithre diet nor cosmetics nor
plastic surgery "cured" homosexuality.

Post by ChewsCrayons
If Barry deserves a guilty verdict for creating (and allowing others
to help create) an image that could sell a product, then we need to
jail everybody. �Because, if it's not about being gay, then everybody
in show business should be held just as accountable for every phony
smile, airbrushed photo and canned response he/she carries around in
their gold leafed, monogrammed portfolios.

It IS about being gay. That's what we were talking about.

Post by ChewsCrayons
But - when we consider that the products sold have brought joy to so
many people - why can't we just acquit everyone and move on? �It
saddens me to think of how much art our culture would have missed out
on if the discussion had been all about the artists' lives first.
Isn't the creation much more important than the creator?

In this case, no. He's also a role model.

Post by ChewsCrayons
Like you, I would love to live in a world where there is no bias
against any demographic. �But gays haven't cornered the market when it
comes to being victimized �(I wish I had a dollar for every time I've
seen some so-called FAT actress being reviled on the cover of some
supermarket rag!)

Well, if there were some danger of us finding out that Keira Knightly
has been lying about being thin and is actually a 300 pounder
underneath that skinny suit, then your point would be relevant to this
discussion. But I'm guessing that's not the case.

Post by ChewsCrayons
I would love it if Barry COULD be 100% himself when he gives an
interview. �We could learn so much more from him - and so much more
appreciate what he's sacrificed for his career - if he could be
entirely open. � �But I think people need to take ownership for their
own faults and thoughts. �We are ALL biased against somebody or some
group for some reason. �And a performer breaking ranks with the
industry norm and being completely honest about himself or herself -
whether it's in reference to his sexual orientation, age, or the names
of his pets - isn't going to change what you or I really think.

And that's the point you keep missing! When people like Barry, who
millions of people love and revere and admire, behaves in such a way
that sends the message the homosexuality is bad and wrong and
something to be ashamed of and hidden away, the chances of eliminating
that particular form of discrimination plummets. It's only by people
being honest and open and unashamed that acceptance begins and grows.

Post by ChewsCrayons
Finally ... why must a performer's ethics or honesty include full
disclosure about who he/she is in the bedroom? �I still maintain that
while President Clinton shouldn't have lied on the witness stand, he
never should have been questioned about his affair to begin with. That
was WRONG. �The media went too far. It had nothing to do with his job
and is nobody's business but his, his girlfriend's, and his
wife's.

Another point you keep missing. This isn't about what goes on in the
bedroom. Again, how much danger do you think Bill Clinton was in of
being assaulted and beaten to death on a public street because he had
a heterosexual liaison. Pretty much zero. This is about being honest
enough to own your life - your real life - so that people can come to
accept that it's okay to be different. Ironically, this is a message
that Manilow has been promoting for much of his career, but one he
doesn't live by himself. As long as he behaves as though he has
something to be ashamed of, he makes the world a more difficult place
for everyone and sends a message to his gay fans that they should be
ashamed, too.

[JAZZ4JEFF]

You guys, it's simply showbiz.

If Barry feels it's better for his career to keep his private life
private, so be it. Barry does a great deal of truth streaching for
promotion purposes. It's the business!

Should we take him to task for telling all interviewers that his Vegas
show is 90 minutes, but he can play longer on his arena tour?
According to the reviews, he does about 90 minutes there too.

Should we call him on the carpet because he tells interviews "he still
has his own hair?"

Many celebrities mask the truth because they are in the business of
promoting their material. I think Barry learned a big lession in
pleasing everybody when he saw the uproar his "The View" stance cost
him. Was that the reason his "70's" CD was the lowest selling CD of
the decade set? Who knows. But to stay popular for over three decades,
Barry knows how to promote himself to the largest possible audience.
And sometimes. it means keeping things priviate.

[MuckrakerMole]

Thank God for people who keep private things things private. Hallelujah to
privacy.

Aren't we sick yet of hearing every detail ad naseum about these people? I
couldn't care less who's sleeping with who, who's spawning how many kids
(married or otherwise), and cheating on their husband/wife/partner. If I
see another photo of some bimbette climbing out of a car without their
underwear, or read another story about someone going into rehab, I'm going
to throw up.

Thank God for those with the class to keep things private, no matter why
they do it. They're a breath of fresh air in the sewage that abounds. I
respect Barry much more for not making a public spectacle of his life.

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[Patricia]

Post by MuckrakerMole
Thank God for people who keep private things things private. Hallelujah to
privacy.
Aren't we sick yet of hearing every detail ad naseum about these people? I
couldn't care less who's sleeping with who, who's spawning how many kids
(married or otherwise), and cheating on their husband/wife/partner. If I
see another photo of some bimbette climbing out of a car without their
underwear, or read another story about someone going into rehab, I'm going
to throw up.
Thank God for those with the class to keep things private, no matter why
they do it. They're a breath of fresh air in the sewage that abounds. I
respect Barry much more for not making a public spectacle of his life.
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Not lying about who he is is hardly "making a public spectacle of his
life." No one asked him to dish details of his sex life (yuck), just
to stop pretending to be straight as though being straight is good and
being gay is bad.

[Brenda]

Post by Patricia
Not lying about who he is is hardly "making a public spectacle of his
life."  No one asked him to dish details of his sex life (yuck), just
to stop pretending to be straight as though being straight is good and
being gay is bad.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

But, with all respect, that's what I honestly and truly don't get - I
don't SEE that a) Barry is currently pretending to be straight (or
anything else, for that matter) and b) how he presents himself in
public casts a good/bad judgment on alternative lifestyles in
general. I just don't look at him or listen to him and make the
connection you do.

Yeah, in the 70s - at the peak of his career - he certainly did. I
think he was under orders to act like a heartthrob! He used to give
interviews to Tiger Beat about his "perfect woman" and you never saw
him in photos without Linda Allen. But lately, what have we really
seen or heard that would suggest he's "pretending" to be straight? (or
gay, or bi- or anything else in particular?) These days - if he's
seen in public - he's either hanging around with Suzanne (who everyone
knows is his married neighbor), attending award shows with Kirsten
(who is like a daughter to him), or walking the dogs with Garry.
Maybe if he spat chewing tobacco and scratched his privates on stage,
I might be tempted to believe he's deliberately trying to pass himself
off as someone he isn't ... but it's not like Barry goes on stage and
feeds the crowd heaping plates of testosterone. :-)

I'm not trying to make one of us right or one of us wrong, Patricia -
just trying to share a totally different viewpoint. I do see where
you're coming from, but your viewpoint doesn't constitute absolute
truth, nor does mine.

If Barry ever does decide to share his sexual orientation with the
world, I suspect it will be done gradually ... just like we see
happening with his age. I can remember a time when fans would be
tarred and feathered for suggesting Barry was born in 1943 rather than
'46. Now, more and more articles are using his real age and you don't
see much of a ripple from his fan-base. I suspect other aspects of
Barry's life will be gradually leaked out the same way ... until,
years from now, the public will have come to accept them as fact
without his ever offering so much as one declaration.

Brenda

[h***@aol.com]

Post by Brenda
If Barry ever does decide to share his sexual orientation with the
world, I suspect it will be done gradually ... just like we see
happening with his age. �I can remember a time when fans would be
tarred and feathered for suggesting Barry was born in 1943 rather than
'46. �Now, more and more articles are using his real age and you don't
see much of a ripple from his fan-base. �I suspect other aspects of
Barry's life will be gradually leaked out the same way ... until,
years from now, the public will have come to accept them as fact
without his ever offering so much as one declaration.
Brenda

The way I see it, I don't think Barry ever HAS to share or declare
anything. His lifestyle seems to be quite obvious to those he is
closest to. Why should he have to declare it to anyone else? He
doesn't declare anything else about his private
life....dogs...address....age....yada yada yada. Who amongst us
declares anything private about our lives either. It's not mandatory
to proclaim anything to the public just because you are a celebrity.
Maybe Barry has no interest in becoming a spokesman for "alternate
lifestyles". Live and let live. He's a person too.
Chris

[Brenda]

Post by h***@aol.com
The way I see it, I don't think Barry ever HAS to share or declare
anything. His lifestyle seems to be quite obvious to those he is
closest to. Why should he have to declare it to anyone else? He
doesn't declare anything else about his private
life....dogs...address....age....yada yada yada. Who amongst us
declares anything private about our lives either. It's not mandatory
to proclaim anything to the public just because you are a celebrity.
Maybe Barry has no interest in becoming a spokesman for "alternate
lifestyles". Live and let live. He's a person too.
Chris

I totally agree, Chris.

Barry doesn't need to be a cheerleader or even a role model for any
demographic. Nobody in the public eye should feel pressured to do
more or be more than what they're paid to do. Barry's paid to make/
perform music. Let him be a musician, and - unless he's committing
some heinous crime we need to know about - to hell with everything
else.

Brenda

[Patricia]

Post by Brenda

Post by h***@aol.com
The way I see it, I don't think Barry ever HAS to share or declare
anything. His lifestyle seems to be quite obvious to those he is
closest to. Why should he have to declare it to anyone else? He
doesn't declare anything else about his private
life....dogs...address....age....yada yada yada. Who amongst us
declares anything private about our lives either. It's not mandatory
to proclaim anything to the public just because you are a celebrity.
Maybe Barry has no interest in becoming a spokesman for "alternate
lifestyles". Live and let live. He's a person too.
Chris

I totally agree, Chris.
Barry doesn't need to be a cheerleader or even a role model for any
demographic. �Nobody in the public eye �should feel pressured to do
more or be more than what they're paid to do. �Barry's paid to make/
perform music. �Let him be a musician, and - unless he's committing
some heinous crime we need to know about - to hell with everything
else.
Brenda

You guys continue to miss the point. No one's asking him to be an
activisit; no one's asking him to be a gossip. He's simply being
asked to be honest so, by example, he can help to alleviate a very
real and very dangerous prejudice in this country.

Let me try it this way. Take all your arguments and pretend that
instead of saying them about Barry Manilow being gay, you said them
about Rosa Parks being black. You'd get things like, "I don't know
why she has to make such a big deal of where she sits on the bus --
you never hear me making a big stink if I don't get the seat I want."
It's the same sort of thing. You can have people just going along
with society's prejudice - whatever that prejudice may be - and thus
reinforcing that prejudice through their own acquiesence, OR, you can
have some brave people who stand up and say, "No, this prejudice is
wrong, and I'm not going to put up with it anymore. This is who I am,
and it's as good and worthy as anyone else."

[Brenda]

You guys continue to miss the point.  No one's asking him to be an
activisit; no one's asking him to be a gossip.  He's simply being
asked to be honest so, by example, he can help to alleviate a very
real and very dangerous prejudice in this country.

No, not missing your point - just disagreeing with your core
argument. I don't think Richard Chamberlain's honesty about his
lifestyle has done anything to alleviate the terrible prejudice and
violence that continues to be leveraged against gays, so I don't see
where Barry - or any other celebrity - being entirely open about his
sexuality is going to garner better results.

Let me try it this way.  Take all your arguments and pretend that
instead of saying them about Barry Manilow being gay, you said them
about Rosa Parks being black.  You'd get things like, "I don't know
why she has to make such a big deal of where she sits on the bus --
you never hear me making a big stink if I don't get the seat I want."

But Rosa Parks wasn't a celebrity - at least before the civil rights
movement. She was just an average woman who resisted the status quo
at the perfect time. Others before her had done the same and we don't
know their names because the country wasn't ready to push forward.

Your central argument is that Barry - because he is IN the public eye
- somehow has the responsibility of making a stand in some way,
whether it be for gay marriage or other benefits not currently
available to gay couples. You're stating that he owes it to others to
be entirely "honest."

But ... it doesn't take a celebrity to do the right thing at the right
time, be noticed and start a movement.

There is a lot we can all do to demand that our government ensure
equal rights for gays, but not much we can do to untangle the rusty
wiring in some bigot's mind. Hatred and prejudice will be with us a
long, long time. Blacks still have to deal with it, even while a
black man is making a credible push for the presidency. Barry will
not live long enough to see prevailing right-wing attitudes about gays
become extinct. Neither will you or I. Nevertheless, I have faith
that, in generations to come, there will be changes for the better.
Gay marriage WILL be recognized, honored and respected. Gay pride
parades (which I consider to be circuses that take us all BACKWARDS in
this process) will gradually vanish, and being gay will then truly be
"no big deal." And I honestly believe that any gay celebrities we
have - living today - won't affect that outcome one way or the other;
it won't matter if they come out or not. They're just not that
important.

It's the same sort of thing.  You can have people just going along
with society's prejudice - whatever that prejudice may be - and thus
reinforcing that prejudice through their own acquiesence, OR, you can
have some brave people who stand up and say, "No, this prejudice is
wrong, and I'm not going to put up with it anymore. This is who I am,
and it's as good and worthy as anyone else."-

I like your words ... I just don't agree that it's the "same sort of
thing" - but I respect that you do.

Brenda

[h***@aol.com]

You guys continue to miss the point. �No one's asking him to be an
activisit; no one's asking him to be a gossip. �He's simply being
asked to be honest so, by example, he can help to alleviate a very
real and very dangerous prejudice in this country.

See, this is what I am saying. I think he IS being honest...with the
people who MATTER to him. The general public DOESN'T matter to him.
You're asking him to lead by example. He doesn't WANT to be an
example. He just wants to be a person. His life revolves around making
music...not furthering a cause for everyone else's benefit. I
personally think he has given an enormous part of his life to
furthering the cause of happines and joy to MANY people. He has said
in many interviews that he has trouble with separatism...labelling and
putting people into little "boxes". Why, then, would he try to label
himself and separate himself into one particular category? He is a
HUMAN BEING. That should be enough.
Chris

[Patricia]

Post by h***@aol.com

You guys continue to miss the point. �No one's asking him to be an
activisit; no one's asking him to be a gossip. �He's simply being
asked to be honest so, by example, he can help to alleviate a very
real and very dangerous prejudice in this country.

See, this is what I am saying. I think he IS being honest...with the
people who MATTER to him. The general public DOESN'T matter to him.
You're asking him to lead by example. He doesn't WANT to be an
example. He just wants to be a person. His life revolves around making
music...not furthering a cause for everyone else's benefit.

"Everyone else's benefit"?? As a gay man living in America, societal
acceptance is very much to his own benefit. (Not that I don't admire
your "screw you -- if it doesn't help me, why should I bother"
attitude toward your fellow man.)

[Patricia]

Post by Brenda

You guys continue to miss the point. �No one's asking him to be an
activisit; no one's asking him to be a gossip. �He's simply being
asked to be honest so, by example, he can help to alleviate a very
real and very dangerous prejudice in this country.

No, not missing your point - just disagreeing with your core
argument. �I don't think Richard Chamberlain's honesty about his
lifestyle has done anything to alleviate the terrible prejudice and
violence that continues to be leveraged against gays, so I don't see
where Barry - or any other celebrity - being entirely open about his
sexuality is going to garner better results.

Just like it doesn't seem that water dripping on a rock could possibly
have any affect on the rock. But with enough drops, and enough times,
the rock will transform under the constant pressure. I'm not sure why
you chose Richard Chamberlain, but that's also the point -- one
individual may not make much of a difference, but many will.

Post by Brenda

Let me try it this way. �Take all your arguments and pretend that
instead of saying them about Barry Manilow being gay, you said them
about Rosa Parks being black. �You'd get things like, "I don't know
why she has to make such a big deal of where she sits on the bus --
you never hear me making a big stink if I don't get the seat I want."

But Rosa Parks wasn't a celebrity - at least before the civil rights
movement. �She was just an average woman who resisted the status quo
at the perfect time. Others before her had done the same and we don't
know their names because the country wasn't ready to push forward.

I'm sorry that you insist on being so literal minded that you again
missed the point.

Post by Brenda
Your central argument is that Barry - because he is IN the public eye
- somehow has the responsibility of making a stand in some way,
whether it be for gay marriage or other benefits not currently
available to gay couples. �You're stating that he owes it to others to
be entirely "honest."

Once again -- and I don't know how many more ways this can be said --
being honest isn't the same thing as "making a stand." If someone
asks you a question, any question, and you answer truthfully, are you
"making a stand"? Perhaps it's not about being honest so much as it
is about not being dishonest, if you can understand that distinction.

Post by Brenda
But ... it doesn't take a celebrity to do the right thing at the right
time, be noticed and start a movement.

No one's asking him to start a movement. He's being asked to be an
example by not acting as though he's ashamed of who he is.

Post by Brenda
There is a lot we can all do to demand that our government ensure
equal rights for gays, but not much we can do to untangle the rusty
wiring in some bigot's mind. �Hatred and prejudice will be with us a
long, long time. �Blacks still have to deal with it, even while a
black man is making a credible push for the presidency. �Barry will
not live long enough to see prevailing right-wing attitudes about gays
become extinct. �Neither will you or I. �Nevertheless, I have faith
that, in generations to come, there will be changes for the better.
Gay marriage WILL be recognized, honored and respected. �Gay pride
parades (which I consider to be circuses that take us all BACKWARDS in
this process) will gradually vanish, and being gay will then truly be
"no big deal." � And I honestly believe that any gay celebrities we
have - living today - won't affect that outcome one way or the other;
it won't matter if they come out or not. �They're just not that
important.

And how are all these marvelous changes going to come about, Brenda?
Things have improved to the extent they have because people have come
out of the closet. The more people who come out of hiding -- and
particularly high profile people -- the more acceptance there will
be. But unless that continues to happen, this utopia you speak of
that lies just beyond our lifetime is never going to come about. Time
alone won't change anything.

[n***@yahoo.com]

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that things in the world
need to change. I don't think Barry should to be the one to elicit
that change if he doesn't want to.

If someone chooses to keep silent, then we should respect their
choice. I agree with Chris. Let Barry be who he wants to be, with whom
he wants, and respect his decision...even if you don't agree with it.

nf

Post by Patricia

Post by Brenda

You guys continue to miss the point. �No one's asking him to be an
activisit; no one's asking him to be a gossip. �He's simply being
asked to be honest so, by example, he can help to alleviate a very
real and very dangerous prejudice in this country.

No, not missing your point - just disagreeing with your core
argument. �I don't think Richard Chamberlain's honesty about his
lifestyle has done anything to alleviate the terrible prejudice and
violence that continues to be leveraged against gays, so I don't see
where Barry - or any other celebrity - being entirely open about his
sexuality is going to garner better results.

Just like it doesn't seem that water dripping on a rock could possibly
have any affect on the rock.  But with enough drops, and enough times,
the rock will transform under the constant pressure.  I'm not sure why
you chose Richard Chamberlain, but that's also the point -- one
individual may not make much of a difference, but many will.

Post by Brenda

Let me try it this way. �Take all your arguments and pretend that
instead of saying them about Barry Manilow being gay, you said them
about Rosa Parks being black. �You'd get things like, "I don't know
why she has to make such a big deal of where she sits on the bus --
you never hear me making a big stink if I don't get the seat I want."

But Rosa Parks wasn't a celebrity - at least before the civil rights
movement. �She was just an average woman who resisted the status quo
at the perfect time. Others before her had done the same and we don't
know their names because the country wasn't ready to push forward.

I'm sorry that you insist on being so literal minded that you again
missed the point.

Post by Brenda
Your central argument is that Barry - because he is IN the public eye
- somehow has the responsibility of making a stand in some way,
whether it be for gay marriage or other benefits not currently
available to gay couples. �You're stating that he owes it to others to
be entirely "honest."

Once again -- and I don't know how many more ways this can be said --
being honest isn't the same thing as "making a stand."  If someone
asks you a question, any question, and you answer truthfully, are you
"making a stand"?  Perhaps it's not about being honest so much as it
is about not being dishonest, if you can understand that distinction.

Post by Brenda
But ... it doesn't take a celebrity to do the right thing at the right
time, be noticed and start a movement.

No one's asking him to start a movement.  He's being asked to be an
example by not acting as though he's ashamed of who he is.

Post by Brenda
There is a lot we can all do to demand that our government ensure
equal rights for gays, but not much we can do to untangle the rusty
wiring in some bigot's mind. �Hatred and prejudice will be with us a
long, long time. �Blacks still have to deal with it, even while a
black man is making a credible push for the presidency. �Barry will
not live long enough to see prevailing right-wing attitudes about gays
become extinct. �Neither will you or I. �Nevertheless, I have faith
that, in generations to come, there will be changes for the better.
Gay marriage WILL be recognized, honored and respected. �Gay pride
parades (which I consider to be circuses that take us all BACKWARDS in
this process) will gradually vanish, and being gay will then truly be
"no big deal." � And I honestly believe that any gay celebrities we
have - living today - won't affect that outcome one way or the other;
it won't matter if they come out or not. �They're just not that
important.

And how are all these marvelous changes going to come about, Brenda?
Things have improved to the extent they have because people have come
out of the closet.  The more people who come out of hiding -- and
particularly high profile people -- the more acceptance there will
be.  But unless that continues to happen, this utopia you speak of
that lies just beyond our lifetime is never going to come about.  Time
alone won't change anything.

[PebblebeachBabe2]

Barry Manilow is an incredible performer. His long career proves he's a
legend. I don't need him to come out of the closet to take a stand. Its
his choice to live his life, and let people believe what they wish. If he
doesn't want to be a gay activist, that's fine.

The dishonesty comes when he and his manager market him as the straight
sex god to lots of women who buy lots of merchandise and tickets. Barry's
answered the question, "are you gay?" with a flat out "no! i was married",
as if that somehow inoculated him from ever being gay. I wish he'd simply
be honest with the all those starry-eyed women who support his career.
It's not gay men who to talk about him on the internet, wishing he was in
their bed. Its women who want to jump his bones, and talk about what's
inside his leather pants when he performs Who's Been Sleeping In My Bed.
If the closet door swung open, maybe he's afraid those fanilows would go
away.

I laughed when Barry sang, "you kissed me and stopped me from shakin' oh
Quagmire" on the Family Guy. Maybe that was a start.

Jill

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[Brenda]

Post by PebblebeachBabe2
I laughed when Barry sang, "you kissed me and stopped me from shakin' oh
Quagmire" on the Family Guy.  Maybe that was a start.
Jill

Jill,

I laughed out loud when Quagmire was looking at cartoon Barry with
those adoring, fawning eyes ... I wish I had a nickel for every set of
those I've seen in his audiences over the years! (you know the look -
a cross between too much Prozac and too much Valium).

And yes, this weekend, two of them will be mine. I know, I'm
shameless.

Brenda

[madhatter]

I read this entire thread and I think everyone, Brenda, Patricia, and a few
others Chris and Neil all make good points. I have say that I enjoyed
reading a good discussion between Brenda and Patricia. Both of you get
kudos! very thought provoking and interesting. Thank you both for the
interesting read. Madhatter

--
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[madhatter]

I read this entire thread and I think everyone, Brenda, Patricia, and a few
others Chris and Neil all make good points. I have say that I enjoyed
reading a good discussion between Brenda and Patricia. Both of you get
kudos! very thought provoking and interesting. Thank you both for the
interesting read. Madhatter

--
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutpeople.com/group/alt.fan.barry-manilow/
More information at http://www.talkaboutpeople.com/faq.html

[Brenda]

Post by Patricia
And how are all these marvelous changes going to come about, Brenda?
Things have improved to the extent they have because people have come
out of the closet.  The more people who come out of hiding -- and
particularly high profile people -- the more acceptance there will
be.  

More legislation, perhaps. More controversy, almost certainly. But I
don't think you can cram acceptance down people's throats before
they're honestly ready to digest it. The sad truth - as I see it - is
our society is just not THERE yet.

In the meantime, every person has to decide for him or herself if it
means enough to be THAT honest in this time and place. I honestly
don't think Barry's sexuality is that important to him. I don't
believe he uses it to define who he is. He's always defined himself
through music. So ... let's say you're dead right, and Barry's
opening up about being gay would be one more necessary drop on that
rock you speak of. But let's also say that worshipping fanilows on
the Barrynet have a total melt-down on the day he comes out. And
let's say some of them stop buying CDs and concert tickets. And let's
say one of them, feeling utterly betrayed by his revelation, decide
she wants to buy a gun and get even with him or even someone he's been
with (in the Biblical sense). (And you know better than anyone -
given some of the research in your book - that there are sickos out
here who are capable of hurting him.) Should Barry be required to put
his career and, possibly, his safety on the line to merely be one more
drop in the infinite number it would take to change the prevailing
attitudes in this country?

You can't answer that no more than I can. Only Barry can and,
whichever he decides to do, he's not wrong. He's like most of us.
Most of us try to live good lives, not screw up too often, and take
care of our own little worlds. If Barry's decision to let things
remain as they are ensures the well-being and livelihoods of himself
and the people he loves - and, let's be blunt, keep a large chunk of
his fan-base content - does he deserve to be judged?

I think not.


 Time

Post by Patricia
alone won't change anything.

You're absolutely right. But people ARE changing things, albeit very
slowly. More and more gays are being open about their lifestyles and,
over time - a lot of time - children will grow up knowing there are
different lifestyles and different choices and they won't be taught to
find them unusual. The term "alternate lifestyle" will no longer
exist, because being heterosexual won't be the norm ... it will just
be one more choice, just like bisexuality, asexuality, etc. And
Barry, making HIS choice, will go on doing what he does best - making
a living by selling music - and an image - that comforts his
listeners.

Patricia, thank you for the great discussion.

Peace -


Brenda

[Patricia]

Post by Patricia
And how are all these marvelous changes going to come about, Brenda?
Things have improved to the extent they have because people have come
out of the closet. �The more people who come out of hiding -- and
particularly high profile people -- the more acceptance there will
be. �

More legislation, perhaps. �More controversy, almost certainly. But I
don't think you can cram acceptance down people's throats before
they're honestly ready to digest it. �The sad truth - as I see it - is
our society is just not THERE yet.

Well, you most definitely can't legislate acceptance.

In the meantime, every person has to decide for him or herself if it
means enough to be THAT honest in this time and place. �I honestly
don't think Barry's sexuality is that important to him.

I would be willing to bet that most any gay person would take
exception to that supposition.

�I don't

believe he uses it to define who he is. �He's always defined himself
through music. �So ... let's say you're dead right, and Barry's
opening up about being gay would be one more necessary drop on that
rock you speak of. �But let's also say that worshipping fanilows on
the Barrynet have a total melt-down on the day he comes out. �And
let's say some of them stop buying CDs and concert tickets. �And let's
say one of them, feeling utterly betrayed by his revelation, decide
she wants to buy a gun and get even with him or even someone he's been
with (in the Biblical sense). �(And you know better than anyone -
given some of the research in your book - that there are sickos out
here who are capable of hurting him.) �Should Barry be required to put
his career and, possibly, his safety on the line to merely be one more
drop in the infinite number it would take to change the prevailing
attitudes in this country?

Let's say we keep our "let's says" in the realm of the probable,
okay? Do you honestly -- honestly -- believe that (1) most Fanilows
don't already know or suspect that Barry's gay, and (2) the handful
that don't would run out and buy ammo and a map to the stars' homes
upon hearing the news? Come on, Brenda. You can't on the one hand
say that he lives a very openly gay life and that everyone knows,
then, on the other hand, say that it's imperative he keep his
homosexuality a secret so a crazed fan doesn't blow his brains out.

You can't answer that no more than I can. �Only Barry can and,
whichever he decides to do, he's not wrong. �He's like most of us.
Most of us try to live good lives, not screw up too often, and take
care of our own little worlds. �If Barry's decision to let things
remain as they are ensures the well-being and livelihoods of himself
and the people he loves - and, let's be blunt, keep a large chunk of
his fan-base content - does he deserve to be judged?
I think not.
�Time

Post by Patricia
alone won't change anything.

You're absolutely right. � But people ARE changing things, albeit very
slowly. More and more gays are being open about their lifestyles and,
over time - a lot of time - children will grow up knowing there are
different lifestyles and different choices and they won't be taught to
find them unusual. �The term "alternate lifestyle" will no longer
exist, because being heterosexual won't be the norm ... it will just
be one more choice, just like bisexuality, asexuality, etc. �And
Barry, making HIS choice, will go on doing what he does best - making
a living by selling music - and an image - that comforts his
listeners.

Sorry, but it still sounds like you're saying that as long as a lie is
comfortable, it's a good thing. I couldn't disagree more.

[ChewsCrayons]

Post by h***@aol.com
The way I see it, I don't think Barry ever HAS to share or declare
anything. His lifestyle seems to be quite obvious to those he is
closest to. Why should he have to declare it to anyone else?

I agree Chris...

His vocation has nothing to do with his sexual preference, so in this,
why do we have a 'right' to know what it is?

Deb.

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by JAZZ4JEFF
Should we call him on the carpet because he tells interviews "he still
has his own hair?"

What makes you think he doesn't have his own hair?

Crystal

[n***@yahoo.com]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you at all. For one thing, the
original article said:

(If Davis and Manilow could stand proud and truthful about his life,
he
would set a terrific example for the young people of this music
industry,
much as Rolling Stone's own publisher Mr. Wenner has done recently
with
his own life (he was married for 15 years, then in recent years lives
a
gay lifestyle). And I salute Wenner for that. After the Aids crisis,
it
was important for every gay man to empower himself and the
alternative
community as nothing to be ashamed of, but instead something to be an
activist for. Davis and Manilow have BOTH done so much damage by being
the opposite.)

Really? How have either of them damaged the gay cause? Have they
caused the AIDS crisis, or if they burst out of the closet, would they
be the cure for AIDS? Why is it necessary for each and every gay man
to be an activist? Not every straight person is an activist for a
cause.

There seems to be a mentality amongst people who want to "out" others
by agenda. Outing for the sake of outing is mean spirited and the only
one who benefits from it is the person who does the outing...in their
own mind they may think they've done the world a favor, but if it's by
hurting someone else that has to be a hollow victory.

I also find it laughable to suggest that Barry Manilow and Clive Davis
are role models for young people. If they came out of the closet, what
young people would respond to it? I doubt they would give a shit. If
it was Justin Timberlake, perhaps. But a 64 year old and a 75 year old
coming out couldn't possibly be anything a young musician could relate
to. I don't see that at all.

I don't agree that by not coming out of the closet, they're sending
the word that homosexuality is a bad thing. Rather, maybe Barry's
sending a message that while he'll still perform in Vegas, do arena
shows and sell CD's and DVD's, his personal life is his own fucking
business...and none of ours.

nf

Post by Patricia

Post by ChewsCrayons

Many of you seem to have missed the point of the guy's comments. �Your
reactions are the same kind of thing I've seen over and over again
from Manilow fans: you're so anxious to assume someone is saying
something to shock or upset you (because naturally saying someone is
gay is, to many of you, the same as insulting them or saying there's
something wrong with them), and so quick to claim that you don't care
and that you're above even thinking of such things, that you don't
actually take the time to read and consider what's being said before
you dismiss it.

Patricia,
I realize that the tone of one's writing is perceived subjectively
(and can understand why you, coming in with a biographer's perspective
rather than that of a fan's, might have perceived it differently than
I did). � Perhaps the tone did not touch you the same way it did me;
while nothing in the post shocked me personally, I felt the "joke is
on the fans" comment (among others) implied the writer of the post
views Barry's fans as one big gullible target, eager to be suckered
into The Big Lie so that The Big Fantasy can live on.
But I did read the piece carefully. �Whether the identity of the
author is legit is pretty meaningless to me, because nothing that was
written is anything I hadn't heard or read before. �I feel it's
probably credible information, but that's just my opinion.
But I do not agree that the post was entirely about honesty. �If it
were, Barry's (and Garry's and Clive's) sexual orientations would not
have been the main focus. �There is so much more (Barry's real age,
for example) that has been purposely hidden from the public. �If it's
just about honesty, why not throw it ALL out there for consumption? �I
think the writer focuses on the sex because he/she believes that's the
knife that will cut the deepest. �And - with some fans - it will.

When's the last time you heard of someone being beaten to death
because someone discovered they were three years older than they
claimed to be?  I'm going to guess the answer is "never."  Sexuality
was the main focus because that's the area where people's dishonesty
is causing a problem.

Post by ChewsCrayons
But let's agree that honesty is the main focus of the piece. �You went
�But I can clearly see the point of his

message, and it's the same point others have made and the same problem
a lot of people have had with Barry and other high profile closeted
people. �When these people work to hide who they really are from the
public (and I'm not talking about simply keeping their private lives
private, but actually taking evasive action and even outright lying to
hide their true selves behind a more societally acceptable facade) it
sends a message that they feel ashamed, that they feel they're doing
something wrong. �

Patricia, that's honestly not the message I'm getting at all.
I don't think it has anything at all to do with shame or hiding
anything from society. �If it did, Barry and Garry wouldn't be a
popular Palm Springs couple. �I think it has everything to do with
marketing. �From the very beginning, Clive helped Barry create an
image that would sell a LOT of albums and hell, it worked like a
charm. �Posturing Barry as a straight, under-30 pop superstar with a
devoted girlfriend but still looking for the real love of his life was
irresistible to legions of new fans. �But - in 1976 - if Clive and
Barry had tried to sell Barry as a gay, over-30 superstar with one (or
several) devoted boyfriends, do you honestly believe you and I would
be talking about him on the Internet today? �He wouldn't have had his
amazing career.

I never said otherwise.  In fact, I make exactly that point in my
book.  But this isn't 1976.  This is 2008.  Manilow has been firmly
established for decades and has had many opportunities to be honest
with his fans, but has decided against it every time.  And we'll just
have to agree to disagree on your assertion that Manilow lied about
various aspects of his life because Clive Davis made him do it.

Post by ChewsCrayons
If this is really about dishonesty, then I think it's rather unfair to
target one performer when this "dishonesty" fuels an entire industry.
It's the dishonesty (I think they prefer to say "spin") that keeps the
plastic surgeons in business, the diet industry flourishing, the
pharmaceutical companies raking in profits and cosmetic companies
torturing more animals. �Nobody would need public relations if the
performer himself could just sit in front of a reporter and honestly
spill the beans about himself whenever he felt the urge. �But the
industry thrives on fantasy, and honest disclosure about everything
and anything kills the fantasy.

No one asked him for full disclosure about every aspect of his life --
just one major one.  And, last I knew, neithre diet nor cosmetics nor
plastic surgery "cured" homosexuality.

Post by ChewsCrayons
If Barry deserves a guilty verdict for creating (and allowing others
to help create) an image that could sell a product, then we need to
jail everybody. �Because, if it's not about being gay, then everybody
in show business should be held just as accountable for every phony
smile, airbrushed photo and canned response he/she carries around in
their gold leafed, monogrammed portfolios.

It IS about being gay.  That's what we were talking about.

Post by ChewsCrayons
But - when we consider that the products sold have brought joy to so
many people - why can't we just acquit everyone and move on? �It
saddens me to think of how much art our culture would have missed out
on if the discussion had been all about the artists' lives first.
Isn't the creation much more important than the creator?

In this case, no.  He's also a role model.

Post by ChewsCrayons
Like you, I would love to live in a world where there is no bias
against any demographic. �But gays haven't cornered the market when it
comes to being victimized �(I wish I had a dollar for every time I've
seen some so-called FAT actress being reviled on the cover of some
supermarket rag!)

Well, if there were some danger of us finding out that Keira Knightly
has been lying about being thin and is actually a 300 pounder
underneath that skinny suit, then your point would be relevant to this
discussion. But I'm guessing that's not the case.

Post by ChewsCrayons
I would love it if Barry COULD be 100% himself when he gives an
interview. �We could learn so much more from him - and so much more
appreciate what he's sacrificed for his career - if he could be
entirely open. � �But I think people need to take ownership for their
own faults and thoughts. �We are ALL biased against somebody or some
group for some reason. �And a performer breaking ranks with the
industry norm and being completely honest about himself or herself -
whether it's in reference to his sexual orientation, age, or the names
of his pets - isn't going to change what you or I really think.

And that's the point you keep missing!  When people like Barry, who
millions of people love and revere and admire, behaves in such a way
that sends the message the homosexuality is bad and wrong and
something to be ashamed of and hidden away, the chances of eliminating
that particular form of discrimination plummets.  It's only by people
being honest and open and unashamed that acceptance begins and grows.

Post by ChewsCrayons
Finally ... why must a performer's ethics or honesty include full
disclosure about who he/she is in the bedroom? �I still maintain that
while President Clinton shouldn't have lied on the witness stand, he
never should have been questioned about his affair to begin with. That
was WRONG. �The media went too far. It had nothing to do with his job
and is nobody's business but his, his girlfriend's, and his
wife's.

Another point you keep missing.  This isn't about what goes on in the
bedroom.  Again, how much danger do you think Bill Clinton was in of
being assaulted and beaten to death on a public street because he had
a heterosexual liaison.  Pretty much zero.  This is about being honest
enough to own your life - your real life - so that people can come to
accept that it's okay to be different. Ironically, this is a message
that Manilow has been promoting for much of his career, but one he
doesn't live by himself.  As long as he behaves as though he has
something to be ashamed of, he makes the world a more difficult place
for everyone and sends a message to his gay fans that they should be
ashamed, too.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[ChewsCrayons]

"new screen name with the same IP address"...

so how does this filter out people using AOL as their ISP (internet
service provider?) or people using a library or other open computer
lab?

My opinion? This is an inflamatory post.. there is nothing credible
in the entire post. Fingers pointing to people that know this or
that, but no real evidence.

Read it line by line, look for the innuendo, and hugh lack of
evidence.

This fellow needs to take a course in critical thinking, because he's
using all of the tricks in the book that a biased writer uses, which
means to me that he has an agenda, and that is to taint the names of
the people mentioned.

To him I say, 'well... so frickin what'... Gay, not gay, bi or
straight... who really cares...

Think of it this way, if I walk up to a new person, do I say 'hi I am
debbie, and I am straight...' ... do you care? Does being straight,
being gay, being bi matter?

No... and in this case, Barry Manilow is a musician, producer,
songwriter, and etc... so what does his sexuality matter? Not like
its on everone's resume...

So big-deal... no ruffled feathers here.. although I think it is a bit
intersting this guy things we somehow care..

peace out
deb.

[dcsharon]

From IMDB (Internet Movie Data Base)

Barry Manilow Live at the Gershwin
Tour Manager: Les Joyce

And, wasn't he quoted in Butler's book as well?

Sharon

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[dcsharon]

More Les Joyce

Thanks on the showstoppers album (from Barry)

Thanks to my friends and colleagues at Arista (Honora Bauman, Rick
Bisceglia, Rick Bleiweiss, Eliza Brownjohn, Marty Diamond, Bill Gaden,
Garth Harris, Minoru Ishijima, Arnie Kaplan, Al Kiczales, Ken Levy, Roy
Lott, Rose Gross-Marino, Tim Prior, Michael Pollack, John Preston, Carolyn
Quan, Mark Rizzo, Melani Rogers, Osamu Sato, Bruce Schoen, Russell
Sicklick, Milton Sincoff, Phil Wild, Tadatoshi Yoshida, Dickie and Sugah)
and at Stiletto (Melanie Baldwin, Stewart Ellner, Marc Hulett, Les Joyce,
Rob Kief, Anita Puckett adn Hilda Woodmore)

Special thanks to Clive Davis for once again giving me the platform and
the opportunity to create a work that I love; to Garry Kief for all of his
support and guidance; to Barbara Cook, Michael Crawford and Hinton Battle
for sharing their enormous talent with all of us; to Steve Wax, to
Jonathon Karp for his valuable input, to all the music publishers whose
cooperation was essential to this project, and most of all, to the gifted
composers and lyricists whose work I've had the honor to perform.

==================================

RCA - Manilow liner notes (from Barry)

Special Thanks to Garry Kief, Steve Wax, Jose Menendez, Richard Goldman,
Les Joyce, Irene Minett, Michael Ameen, Roberta Kent, Tucker Cheadle, Lou
Genetti, Rebecca Larsen, and of course, Linda, Bagel and Biscuit

===============================

Live in Britain Liner Notes

The Tour Manager is Les Joyce

===================================

From what is said in the letter, I believe that Les himself wrote it.

Sharon





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[Reb]

Post by jtmtj
Posted by somebody named Les Joyce. Does anyone know who this is.

Les Joyce worked for Barry but that doesn't mean he actually posted this.

http://www.ibdb.com/person.asp?ID=83554

[Sparky]

Hi John,

Someone named "Les Joyce" posted this on the Barrynet cause he/she
knew that was really the only "Barry" place where what was said would
get a stunned reaction.
Whether Barry and Clive are gay...who gives a sh*t??? We are all
humans, and everyone lives only once and has the right to a lifestyle
to make themselves happy. Nobody should judge them; they aren't
hurting others in the process ( except if they have "friends" on the
side and have neglected to tell that person).
Barry owes us nothing but his music and performances at concerts, and,
JMO, he is well worth the price of a ticket for any of his shows.

S

Posted by somebody named Les Joyce.  Does anyone know who this is.  He's
got guts.  I'll give him that.  Some of the Barry-can-do-no-wrong throng
are getting their panties in a bunch.  I wonder how long it will take them
to remove this and suspend his privleges.
***
BOTH CLIVE AND BARRY GAY : ROLLING STONE STORY
Clive Davis has been the world's best publicist for over 30
years...manufacturing his own version of his life story and cementing it
with every tv show, magazine and media outlet in the world.
He proved it again with the recent Rolling Stone profile.
Sure Clive was at the right place at the right time,
and he has some talents, no one can take that away.
But was this RS feature supposed to be a giant old school
fluff piece from the 80's? or in keeping with the excellent
investigative journalism we've seen from your magazine ?
Most notably glaring absent, is the fact that RS writer
Rich Cohen was bamboozled into thinking that '(he) was
here all alone in the house with Clive, with no one else ",
and that simply because Davis tells him he's got 4 children
that he is straight in lifestyle. Where's the delving into the REAL FACTS
ABOUT CLIVE which he could have discovered by simply talking
with almost anyone in the industry?
Davis took him to the country house, but not to his real residence in
Manhattan. Because he is hiding something about his life, for some strange
and unexplained reason, for over 30 years.
The fact is, and it is VERY well known throughout the industry and on both
coasts, that Clive Davis has been leading a gay lifestyle for over 25
years. This began after his marriage dissolved.
In fact, he has been in a serious relationship with a wonderful doctor for
the past 15 or more years. This is no secret. so why no mention in the RS
story, or ANY PROFILE on Davis...ever ?
Are people so scared, and of what? The man is 80 years old
and an inch away from knocking on heavens door.
Why can important high profile execs and artists like David Geffen, Elton
John, Rufus Wainright and so many other great execs and artists come out
and stand up proud, but Davis (and Manilow and his own boyfriend / manager
Garry Kief for that matter) are 'untouchable' by the music and mainstream
press?
The fact is: Both Barry and Clive have been living a gay lifestyle for
over twenty years now. And the joke is on the public and the fans.
It's a sham, and a travesty of journalistic facts. Clive smoked Rolling
Stone again, and it looks like Davis' real life story will emerge along
the same lines as Merv Griffin after he passed thru this world. Both men,
feeling they have to conceal and hide something.
As Bono once said, "It's all about an effort to 'reveal',
or 'conceal'. Ahh, so true.
I know the above facts to be true with Davis and Barely ManEnough because
I worked closely with both of them for over 15 years. I have met and
worked with their boyfriends and again, this is no secret in the industry.
It's all common knowledge, and no one really blinks an eye. But now you
know, the public and fans.
So to read this RS profile was laughable to see that Clive has succeeded
again, just like George Bush with the Iraq War and so much more, in
manipulating the truth. Las year, LA Times ran a major profile on Barely
ManEnough and Clive and again never mentioned that both were
prominent gay men.
If Davis and Manilow could stand proud and truthful about his life, he
would set a terrific example for the young people of this music industry,
much as Rolling Stone's own publisher Mr. Wenner has done recently with
his own life (he was married for 15 yeaers, then in recent years lives a
gay lifestyle). And I salute Wenner for that. After the Aids crisis, it
was important for every gay man to empower himself and the alternative
community
as nothing to be ashamed of, but instead something to be an activist for.
Davis and Manilow have BOTH done so much damage by being the opposite.
Because we are only as sick as our secrets, and they have a big one hiding
under their hats.
The RS and LA Times writers missed the boat by a million miles, was
manipulated by Davis and Manilow and his publicists, and misled readers at
a time when the truth is so important in this world of ours.
C'mon Clive and Barry, it's time to tell music fans the real story and
stop living a lie in public.
***
John
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[ChewsCrayons]

Sorry Patricia, I do not agree - because here is how I look at his

Post by jtmtj
The fact is, and it is VERY well known throughout the industry and on both
coasts, that Clive Davis has been leading a gay lifestyle for over 25
years. This began after his marriage dissolved.

*** If is is indeed fact, then where is the proof? What is their
source of information?

Post by jtmtj
In fact, he has been in a serious relationship with a wonderful doctor for
the past 15 or more years. This is no secret. so why no mention in the RS
story, or ANY PROFILE on Davis...ever ?

**** Same as above, if this is fact, then where is the proof? What or
who is their source of information? How do we know this to be true?
How does he know it to be true?

Post by jtmtj
Why can important high profile execs and artists like David Geffen, Elton
John, Rufus Wainright and so many other great execs and artists come out
and stand up proud, but Davis (and Manilow and his own boyfriend / manager
Garry Kief for that matter) are 'untouchable' by the music and mainstream
press?

**** Here is he trying to press a conclusion upon us through
comparison. Again, what he is saying about Barry is innuendo, not
proven only guess. He is manipulating us by saying 'they are gay but
are ashamed of it -- so refuse to come out of the closet.

Post by jtmtj
The fact is: Both Barry and Clive have been living a gay lifestyle for
over twenty years now. And the joke is on the public and the fans.

*** Again - 'fact' thrown in our face and coupled by a direct insult
meant to manipulate our feelings - as if to say 'the fans are a joke
to Barry'.

Post by jtmtj
It's a sham, and a travesty of journalistic facts. Clive smoked Rolling
Stone again, and it looks like Davis' real life story will emerge along
the same lines as Merv Griffin after he passed thru this world. Both men,
feeling they have to conceal and hide something.

**** Again, manipuating our emotions through comparison of something
that is gossip, and innuendo. There is no fact here, no thread of
truth that can be shown to us. No photos, no signed letter from
Clive ... etc..

Post by jtmtj
I know the above facts to be true with Davis and Barely ManEnough because
I worked closely with both of them for over 15 years. I have met and
worked with their boyfriends and again, this is no secret in the industry.
It's all common knowledge, and no one really blinks an eye. But now you
know, the public and fans.

***** Guilt because a close friend 'says so'.. How are we to know the
person that wrote this is who they say they are. The insult 'Barely
ManEnough' shows me this person is a 'wanna be writer' - they cap. the
M and the E to give it emphasis and I have seen this 'phrase'
before.

Writing that it is 'common knowledge' is another trick of biased
writing, it is to lull you into a secure notion that 'hey everyone
thinks this'.

Post by jtmtj
So to read this RS profile was laughable to see that Clive has succeeded
again, just like George Bush with the Iraq War and so much more,

**** This again is a move used to pull on your emotions, relating
unrelated items, try to to give some symbolance of meaning to once
sentence by pulling in something most people feel strongly about (the
Iraq War and George Bushes decisions) - while really, one thing has
nothing to do with the other.

Post by jtmtj
Las year, LA Times ran a major profile on Barely
ManEnough and Clive and again never mentioned that both were
prominent gay men.

**** Again, pulling on personal emotions, stating that they are some
how 'ashamed to be gay' but this write is showing how well they toss
in insults, saying 'well they won't come out of the closet so then
they must be ashamed to be gay. This is relating things that really
have nothing to do with each other.

Post by jtmtj
his own life (he was married for 15 yeaers, then in recent years lives a
gay lifestyle). And I salute Wenner for that. After the Aids crisis, it
was important for every gay man to empower himself and the alternative
community

*****Again an inflamatory statement using a comparson to try to show
us how good the people on the right are, while people on the left
are ... well not good and trying to some how hide their sexuality --
which is an insult to all gays.

Post by jtmtj
Davis and Manilow have BOTH done so much damage by being the opposite.

**** So how does this do damage? If they were gay and did not come
out and say so, how does this really damage anyone?

Post by jtmtj
Because we are only as sick as our secrets, and they have a big one hiding under their hats.

**** This is inflamatory and meant to insult - no truth, no facts, no
real basis for saying it other than to fume or vent personal
feelings.

To me, nothing in the post had any real fact or substance for that
matter. It was one long rant. There was nothing to prove this person
worked with Barry, and the entire post was clearly biaed and written
by someone who had some vendetta.

Cleary this post has no substance, fact. The focus was often shifted
to manipulate the reader.

Here - http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jul/27-595713.html

Read this: How to Identify Misinformation (by the US Gov).

Five simple questions to ask yourself about this article.

How to Identify Misinformation







How can a journalist or a news consumer tell if a story is true or
false? There are no exact rules, but the following clues can help
indicate if a story or allegation is true.

Does the story fit the pattern of a conspiracy theory? (yes)
Does the story fit the pattern of an "urban legend?" (yes)
Does the story contain a shocking revelation about a highly
controversial issue? (yes)
Is the source trustworthy? (no)
What does further research tell you? (that this statment has been
around as long as Barry's Career).

Okay.. work calls.

deb.

[Patricia]

Post by ChewsCrayons
Five simple questions to ask yourself about this article.
How to Identify Misinformation
How can a journalist or a news consumer tell if a story is true or
false? �There are no exact rules, but the following clues can help
indicate if a story or allegation is true.
Does the story fit the pattern of a conspiracy theory? (yes)
Does the story fit the pattern of an "urban legend?" (yes)
Does the story contain a shocking revelation about a highly
controversial issue? (yes)
Is the source trustworthy? (no)
What does further research tell you? (that this statment has been
around as long as Barry's Career).
Okay.. work calls.
deb.

Well, Deb, the story fits YOUR pattern of a conspiracy theory and
urban legend, and the "revelation" may have been shocking to YOU, but
I'm going to take an educated guess that your not exactly a
trustworthy source on whether or not the source is trustworthy, and
that you've done absolutely no research beyond your own head. Those
five questions don't exactly work when you pull the five answers out
of your posterior.

[ChewsCrayons]

Post by Patricia
Well, Deb, the story fits YOUR pattern of a conspiracy theory and
urban legend, and the "revelation" may have been shocking to YOU, but
I'm going to take an educated guess that your not exactly a
trustworthy source on whether or not the source is trustworthy, and
that you've done absolutely no research beyond your own head.  Those
five questions don't exactly work when you pull the five answers out
of your posterior.- Hide quoted text -

I do not agree Pat.

Here is this person, who is basically on a rant... there is nothing
'calm' about his approach to the topic, he is rambling and basically
giving comparisons to things not even on his own topic.

And I was not talking about me, I was talking about what he wrote...

Deb...

[MuckrakerMole]

Patricia, you're nothing if not persistent. You keep banging your head
against the same rock, without it budging.

I don't see how Barry announcing that he's gay would be of great benefit
to society as a whole, and I'm beginning to wonder if that's the true
reasoning behind your comments. What do you honestly hope to get out of
this, other than the right to say "ah ha, I TOLD you he was gay"?

Or, is that it?

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[Patricia]

Post by MuckrakerMole
Patricia, you're nothing if not persistent. You keep banging your head
against the same rock, without it budging.
I don't see how Barry announcing that he's gay would be of great benefit
to society as a whole, and I'm beginning to wonder if that's the true
reasoning behind your comments. What do you honestly hope to get out of
this, other than the right to say "ah ha, I TOLD you he was gay"?
Or, is that it?
--
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Are you serious? Do you honestly believe that I broke the news that
Barry is gay? Or that I believe I did? That it was an "ah ha" moment
for anyone? I understand that you and others here don't understand
that we're not only talking about one individual doing something in a
vacuum, but rather one individual stepping out into the daylight with
many other individuals. If everyone took the "one person can't make a
difference" attitude toward this or any other issue, where would we
be? If you don't understand this concept coming from me, maybe you'll
understand it coming from someone else:

Just One Voice,
Singing in the darkness,
All it takes is One Voice,
Singing so they hear what's on your mind,
And when you look around you'll find
There's more than
One Voice,

Singing in the darkness,
Joining with your One Voice,
Each and every note another octave,
Hands are joined and fears unlocked,
If only
One Voice
Would start it on its own
We need just One Voice
Facing the unknown,
And that One Voice
Would never be alone
It takes that One Voice.

Just One Voice
Singing in the darkness,
All it takes is One Voice,
Shout it out and let it ring.
Just One Voice,
It takes that One Voice,
And everyone will sing!

[ChewsCrayons]

Post by MuckrakerMole
Patricia, you're nothing if not persistent. You keep banging your head
against the same rock, without it budging.
I don't see how Barry announcing that he's gay would be of great benefit
to society as a whole, and I'm beginning to wonder if that's the true
reasoning behind your comments. What do you honestly hope to get out of
this, other than the right to say "ah ha, I TOLD you he was gay"?
Or, is that it?
--

I totally agree with you MuckrakerMole...

Deb

[lyndyb]

I don't usually enter into these discussions because I don't see that it
accomplishes anything, but as long as we're having a somewhat reasonable
discussin .....

To some extent, I understand curiosity or speculation about celebrities,
just as people are curious about our neighbors and coworkers. But I don't
really understand why we need to label people.

Beyond that, I don't think anyone - celebrity or private person - should
be obligated to state their sexual preference to the world. Instead of
believing he's a liar, ashamed or wanting to preserve his fan base, I
respect his desire to keep his personal life private, which is how he's
always conducted himself. Just because you're a famous person, it doesn't
mean you (should have to) give up your right to privacy.

Whether you would be disturbed by any message Barry might choose to share
about his personal life might distinguish whether you're a fan of his
music or if you're the fan of the perception you've built in your own mind
of who he is. I love his music and rather like the guy behind it - and his
personal life and how he leads it really doesn't factor into it. I realize
my whole comment is simplistic, but he's a musician, not a world leader -
leave the man alone!


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[Patricia]

Post by lyndyb
I don't usually enter into these discussions because I don't see that it
accomplishes anything, but as long as we're having a somewhat reasonable
discussin .....
To some extent, I understand curiosity or speculation about celebrities,
just as people are curious about our neighbors and coworkers. �But I don't
really understand why we need to label people.
Beyond that, I don't think anyone - celebrity or private person - should
be obligated to state their sexual preference to the world. �Instead of
believing he's a liar, ashamed or wanting to preserve his fan base, I
respect his desire to keep his personal life private, which is how he's
always conducted himself. �Just because you're a famous person, it doesn't
mean you (should have to) give up your right to privacy.
Whether you would be disturbed by any message Barry might choose to share
about his personal life might distinguish whether you're a fan of his
music or if you're the fan of the perception you've built in your own mind
of who he is. �I love his music and rather like the guy behind it - and his
personal life and how he leads it really doesn't factor into it. I realize
my whole comment is simplistic, but he's a musician, not a world leader -
leave the man alone! � � � �

Anyone in the public eye, like it or not, is a "world leader." They
set themselves above the crowd for people to judge and emulate, for
better or worse. And this constant "Barry wants to keep his private
life private" really only holds water if Barry has actually done that
over the years, which he hasn't. He's used his private life -- or at
least his own somewhat edited version of his private life -- to
promote himself throughout his career. He even wrote a book on the
subject. And he hasn't hesitated to mislead people on -- and outright
lie about -- certain aspects of his private life to suit his own
purposes. And THAT'S what we're talking about. He hasn't minded
being dishonest about his private life in order to present a version
that apparently he feels will make him more likeable and sympathetic
to the public. If any of this were really about his desire to keep
his private life private, he wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of
dissembling, but would have instead just kept quiet about things,
which he hasn't done.

[ChewsCrayons]

I understand what you are saying Patricia, and do agree to some
extent.

However, I do not see how Barry's age or sexual orientation has
anything to do with his vocation.

So either way - it would not change my opinion of him since, it is his
music that I like.... now if you tell me that he has fibbed about, or
stole lyrics / songs, well sure, that might make me feel different
about him.

Deb.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by ChewsCrayons
So either way - it would not change my opinion of him since, it is his
music that I like.... now if you tell me that he has fibbed about, or
stole lyrics / songs, well sure, that might make me feel different
about him.

Y'know, fibbing is fibbing no matter what the subject is. Somewhere
down the road, the fib is gonna hurt someone or there is gonna be a
consequence or victims. I'd hate to see Barry's MUSIC and his genius
overshadowed by the scandal of a stupid marketing/branding fib.

I'd rather see him open and honest with a musical legacy that isn't
clouded over by a fib that has been pulled over for way too long.

Jackie

[ChewsCrayons]

Y'know, fibbing is fibbing no matter what the subject is.  Somewhere
down the road, the fib is gonna hurt someone or there is gonna be a
consequence or victims.  I'd hate to see Barry's MUSIC and his genius
overshadowed by the scandal of a stupid marketing/branding fib.
I'd rather see him open and honest with a musical legacy that isn't
clouded over by a fib that has been pulled over for way too long.
Jackie

--------

I think this is very different because the question is of a very
personal nature. Why is the truth 'owed' to anyone?

If you feel it is, because Barry is famous, then does this mean, any
question is one he should answer truthfully?

Where is the line?

deb.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by ChewsCrayons
I think this is very different because the question is of a very
personal nature.  Why is the truth 'owed' to anyone?

I can see where relationships and who you are seeing is personal and
private, but Deb, even within this very newsgroup we know amoungst
ourselves who is married, divorced, orientations, etc. Sure, some
things are private but it's also a part of who we are as fellow human
beings. Barry had a choice whether to pursue music by arranging and
being Nelson Riddle and more private in his life or by being "out
there" and the headlining singer/entertainer/celebrity -- and all else
that comes with the territory. If that argument applies to all, we
should not have celebrity shows like ET out there, we should not know
when Donny and Marie's father passes away, we should not know if Brad
and Angelina are having another child or that J Lo just had twins.
When press releases come forth about Barry's legal battles or if he
was hospitalized for a hip condition, breaking a nose, etc. -- that,
then, should be private too.

That said, media really does push way beyond reasonable boundries. I
really don't want to know the underwear situation with Brittany or
Paris -- seriously. I do think media wise things need to get pulled
waaaay back. Likewise, when the news spends more time on Anna Nicole
Smith than on Iraq casualities... things are certainly out of whack.

Post by ChewsCrayons
If you feel it is, because Barry is famous, then does this mean, any
question is one he should answer truthfully?
Where is the line?

Deb, eventually truth comes out. So, I counter back with when is a
lie really legit? How come it's okay for him to lie about some things
but not others?

I'm going to present a different scenario with the end in mind. Let's
say Elton John and Barry (40 to 50 years from now so they are in their
HUNDREDS) ... both meet their untimely demise on the same day. Elton
has been very open about who he is and Barry, who, let's say
hypothetically has been less forward about his personal and private
life. Which one is going to get headlines and be remembered for his
musical legacy and which one is going to get headlines about the
hidden secret life? Perhaps I'm guilty of projecting what I'd want my
end legacy to be or what I'd wish Barry's end legacy to be ... but in
the end, I'd sure hope people would be able to concentrate on his
music and his genius.

Jackie

[ChewsCrayons]

Deb, eventually truth comes out.  So, I counter back with when is a
lie really legit?  How come it's okay for him to lie about some things
but not others?

Well, I think it comes down to do the people asking these questions
really have a right to and a right to the truth?

If so, then where is the line? How personal a question can they ask
and how truthful does he have to be about it?

If he does not respond then what?

I think if the questions are related to his vocation, well maybe.. or
are they 'need to know' type questions - where its basically
confidential? (i.e. like asking about plans that have not yet been
finalized... dates, locations, etc...)

But if they are personal, why should he have to respond?

And okay, so if he went on TV and they asked him point blank 'are you
gay' is that not just a bit unfair? I mean a tv appearance has
nothing to do with that specific line of questioning...

I think it comes down to people thinking because he is famous, they
have the 'right to know' but he really, sincerely does not have to
answer.. and if he does, why does it have to be 'THE' truth?

I think we expect just too much from the famous... they are people too
and have a right to some measure of privacy - including details of
their sex lives.

Deb :)

[ChewsCrayons]

I do see where you all are coming from...

When my children were younger and I took them shopping (all five), I'd
get strangers ask me 'oh so cute - do they have the same father'? Are
you Catholic? Had two women behind me swear I pull out food stamps.

I am divorced, and when I take them all out to eat -- I get 'wow you
must get SOME child support - how much do you get? Oh no wonder you
can afford to eat out'... Had someone tell me 'nice car - did you get
it in the divorce'?

And at work I get - 'why don't you ever date...'.. you've been
divorced all these years and do not date.. what are you picky? (and
assumptions are made - because I had one of my daughters friends ask
if I was gay because I did not date. I told her, well if I was gay,
that would mean I was probably dating yes?

You know.. these questions.. they do hurt.

Now, I just ignore people... its easier.


deb.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by ChewsCrayons

Deb, eventually truth comes out.  So, I counter back with when is a
lie really legit?  How come it's okay for him to lie about some things
but not others?

Well, I think it comes down to do the people asking these questions
really have a right to and a right to the truth?

Actually, Barry hasn't had it so bad regarding the asked questions. I
think there has been a general agreement with the interviewers and I
don't think Barry just gives out interviews. Some celebs simply state
"Here's what I'm going to talk about. Nothing else." When he toured
in SD, an acquaintance of mine working for our paper wasn't ever going
to get an interview -- Manilow's PR team had a press release type
interview that could be used. Then press has to resort to doing
things like interviewing local fans or whatever they can to get a
local or personal spin on the paper.

Post by ChewsCrayons
I think it comes down to people thinking because he is famous, they
have the 'right to know' but he really, sincerely does not have to
answer.. and if he does, why does it have to be 'THE' truth?

Here's the deal -- (though it does get better through time) - there
winds up being this big divisive business within the fan base. If you
were to ask my husband or general Joe or Jane Civilian, most wouldn't
at all be surprised or bat an eye if Barry were asked or would respond
affirmative to "the forbidden question".

There's also the attitude of "don't ask, don't tell." The thing is
that this "forbidden subject" actually takes away from the music
because it is the "forbidden territory" -- so it's discussed or
brought about by others in the biz or elsewhere instead.

HIs PR encourages we can know which political candidates he
contributes money to, we can know he walked into a wall and broke his
nose, we can know who he hangs out with and that Suzanne Sommers is
his best buddy, we can know he quit smoking.... we can know he had
Lasik ... we can know about Lindas and Robertas (which indicated
another level of unavailability for the female fan base). Sorry,
but I'm just not buying the "but you don't have a right to the truth"
stuff when other stuff is dished out so plentiful. I'm a bit
insulted that the fan base is short-changed and not considered with
more substance to actually enjoy an artist for the music and to
appreciate orientation. Most of us aren't 17 year olds reading Tiger
Beat anymore ... and still here -- not for the leather-clad 60 year
old buttocks, but for the music because it's great! I live in red-
state, red-necked, conservative South Dakota. Elton John sold out in
his concert here in less than 15 minutes. People sang with the music,
enjoyed the entertainment and showmanship, and there was no huge
"forbidden question" getting in the way of a good time and good
music. Barry's shows are EVEN BETTER. He's going to sell seats, sell
CDs, sell the music and it doesn't have to be the "oh he's a lonely
crooner unlucky in love and never finding the right girl" branding
that does it.

Jackie

[ChewsCrayons]

 He's going to sell seats, sell

Post by j***@gmail.com
CDs, sell the music and it doesn't have to be the "oh he's a lonely
crooner unlucky in love and never finding the right girl" branding
that does it.
Jackie

-------

I guess its just me, I do not see it as being anyone business who he
sleeps with since its not really a moot point in relationship to his
career.

deb...

[Patricia]

Post by ChewsCrayons

Y'know, fibbing is fibbing no matter what the subject is. �Somewhere
down the road, the fib is gonna hurt someone or there is gonna be a
consequence or victims. �I'd hate to see Barry's MUSIC and his genius
overshadowed by the scandal of a stupid marketing/branding fib.
I'd rather see him open and honest with a musical legacy that isn't
clouded over by a fib that has been pulled over for way too long.
Jackie

--------
I think this is very different because the question is of a very
personal nature. �Why is the truth 'owed' to anyone?
If you feel it is, because Barry is famous, then does this mean, any
question is one he should answer truthfully?
Where is the line?
deb.

It's really hard for me to understand how this point keeps getting
missed.

He is being taken to task for being dishonest about being gay because
gay people are discriminated against and it's only when people --
especially prominent people -- are open and accepting toward gay
people that the discrimination can end. If people who are three years
older than they publicly admit to being were being beaten to death on
public streets, then people would be urging folks like Manilow to
admit to his real age. Same for any other area in which he might not
have been quite honset. But since people who lie about their age,
etc., are not facing often life-threatening prejudices, it's not
really an issue.

[MuckrakerMole]

Patricia, yes, we all understand what you're saying. Gays are discriminated
against, yes they are...along with Blacks, Hispanics, Middle Easterns,
Jews, Women, etc., etc. In a perfect world if everyone who belonged to
every group being discriminated against was an activist or worked for
change...it would be a perfect world with zero discrimination. But it's
not. Not everyone chooses to march in the parades, or beat the drums.

We all understand that you think Barry is a big fat liar for not
proclaiming that he's gay. And so now, rather than just being an
entertainer, he's somehow been elevated to the position of "world leader"
and by admitting his sexuality he'll change the universe.

Does everyone get it? Patricia Butler thinks Barry is dishonest, is a
liar, and she's highly offended by it? Everyone clear on that? Get her
point?




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[Patricia]

Post by MuckrakerMole
Patricia, yes, we all understand what you're saying. Gays are discriminated
against, yes they are...along with Blacks, Hispanics, Middle Easterns,
Jews, Women, etc., etc. In a perfect world if everyone who belonged to
every group being discriminated against was an activist or worked for
change...it would be a perfect world with zero discrimination. But it's
not. Not everyone chooses to march in the parades, or beat the drums.
We all understand that you think Barry is a big fat liar for not
proclaiming that he's gay. And so now, rather than just being an
entertainer, he's somehow been elevated to the position of "world leader"
and by admitting his sexuality he'll change the universe.
Does everyone get it? Patricia Butler thinks Barry is dishonest, is a
liar, and she's highly offended by it? Everyone clear on that? Get her
point?

Do not presume to speak for me, especially when you demonstrate NO
understanding at all of what I've been saying. There have been
several people here who have commented on the things I've said and,
while they may not have agreed with my point of view, they at least
showed an understanding of my comments and have expressed their own
personal views without presuming to express anyone else's. The
comments in your most recent post make it very, very clear that you
have no understanding whatsoever either of what I've been saying in
this thread or really of the thread itself. If you want to make
ignorant and hateful comments, you make sure you own them. DO NOT
project your ignorance onto me, nor in any way pretend that you speak
for me. You absolutely do not. Are you clear on that? Get my
point? Good.

[MuckrakerMole]

Oh, please, get off your high horse you hypocrite! You don't like other
people speaking for you? Then who the hell are YOU to speak for the entire
gay community?

Are you gay, Patricia? It would be dishonest for you not to admit it if
you are, right? And if you're not - who the fuck appointed you their
spokesman?

If I can't speak for you, then MY point is - you don't get to speak for
what Barry Manilow should or shouldn't do either.

GET IT NOW, MORON?????

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[Patricia]

Post by MuckrakerMole
Oh, please, get off your high horse you hypocrite! You don't like other
people speaking for you? Then who the hell are YOU to speak for the entire
gay community?
Are you gay, Patricia? It would be dishonest for you not to admit it if
you are, right? And if you're not - who the fuck appointed you their
spokesman?
If I can't speak for you, then MY point is - you don't get to speak for
what Barry Manilow should or shouldn't do either.
GET IT NOW, MORON?????

Unlike you, I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself. And I
think your inability to join the conversation in a mature and logical
way pretty much says all that anyone needs to know about you.

[ChewsCrayons]

Post by Patricia
He is being taken to task for being dishonest about being gay because
gay people are discriminated against and it's only when people --
especially prominent people -- are open and accepting toward gay
people that the discrimination can end.

I do agree with you Patricia, I had not thought of this either, but
maybe the gay elite are afraid of ramifications to them and their
families if they do come out?


Deb.

[Patricia]

Post by ChewsCrayons

Post by Patricia
He is being taken to task for being dishonest about being gay because
gay people are discriminated against and it's only when people --
especially prominent people -- are open and accepting toward gay
people that the discrimination can end.

I do agree with you Patricia, I had not thought of this either, but
maybe the gay elite are afraid of ramifications to them and their
families if they do come out?
Deb.

I don't think it's highly likely that it would have any adverse
affects on someone of Manilow's age and the length of his career. I
don't even think younger performers (i.e., Joey Fatone) have had any
trouble once they've officially come out. In fact, in a lot of cases
I think it's helped their careers to be seen as being honest and
unashamed. While Manilow couldn't have come out in the 70s without
pretty much halting his career in its tracks, I think there have been
many times in the past 10 or so years when it would have been graceful
and logical and probably both personally and professionally beneficial
for him to have done so. That's part of what's so frustrating about
those who still hide. It's not even like they would be blazing a
brand new trail -- just widening the path already laid out by those
who've gone before to make the way easier for those walking the same
path in the future.

[ChewsCrayons]

That's part of what's so frustrating about

those who still hide.  It's not even like they would be blazing a
brand new trail -- just widening the path already laid out by those
who've gone before to make the way easier for those walking the same
path in the future.

Oxnard school shooting 2:50

A junior high school student is killed after admitting he was gay.
CNN's Dan Simon reoprts.

Young child (age 15) shot in back of head because he 'came out',
admitting he was gay. (Bullied for months at school).

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/02/25/simon.hate.crime.cnn

I notice the school did nothing to protect him... this happened
'during' an English class. Another 8th grader shot him.

I have an 8th grader at home.. this type of crime is dispicable.


deb....

[Patricia]

Post by ChewsCrayons
So either way - it would not change my opinion of him since, it is his
music that I like.... now if you tell me that he has fibbed about, or
stole lyrics / songs, well sure, that might make me feel different
about him.

Y'know, fibbing is fibbing no matter what the subject is. �Somewhere
down the road, the fib is gonna hurt someone or there is gonna be a
consequence or victims. �I'd hate to see Barry's MUSIC and his genius
overshadowed by the scandal of a stupid marketing/branding fib.
I'd rather see him open and honest with a musical legacy that isn't
clouded over by a fib that has been pulled over for way too long.
Jackie

It's interseting that when we're talking about someone we don't like,
they're a liar. But with someone we do like, they're a fibber.
Interesting distinction.

[Patricia]

Post by ChewsCrayons
I understand what you are saying Patricia, and do agree to some
extent.
However, I do not see how Barry's age or sexual orientation has
anything to do with his vocation.
So either way - it would not change my opinion of him since, it is his
music that I like.... now if you tell me that he has fibbed about, or
stole lyrics / songs, well sure, that might make me feel different
about him.
Deb.

I don't think anyone was suggesting you change your opinion of him or
his music.